English Wikipedia @ Freddythechick:Articles for deletion/20 GOTO 10

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was Merge with Goto. Golbez 19:01, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

20 GOTO 10

This article was previously marked as speedy for being "not encyclopedic", but that is not a criterion for speedy. This article is about a line of programming code used in a simple program. I abstain. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:51, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Merge with GOTO. Useful demonstration, but does not require its own article. On a side note, I remember writing those little programs... ah, the good old days... -- BD2412 talk 03:55, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
  • Keep it. 11,000 Google hits. [1]. --Barfooz (talk) 05:56, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, this is obviously a hello world type thing and shouldn't be merged with anything else. Kappa 07:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • What the hey? An entire article about a line of program code? This is useful information, but not encyclopedic as its own article. Why not have an article for 30 I=I+1 or 40 IF A$="Y" THEN 60 as well? Merge with GOTO. — JIP | Talk 07:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Please read the article, not just the title. Kappa 09:48, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • I did read the article. How else could I have said "this is useful information"? The article's contents are useful, but they belong in the GOTO article, not in an article about one, essentially entirely random, line of program code. If I had based my judgement solely on the title, I would most likely have slapped a speedy delete tag on the article. — JIP | Talk 09:57, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that it is notable, but it should be merged with GOTO. the wub (talk) 07:48, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge - with Gotoor with BASIC programming language - of which this is an example. Yes, I can get nostalgic too, but Goto is/was one of many keywords in that language. If kept then expect to see articles on 'next n' 'for a=1 to 6' 'load ""', poke, peek, etc - each with arbitrary variables and numbers before and after them. (If you are under 27, then please abstain as you will not know what we're talking about) --Doc (?) 08:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Article GOTO Merge. Would be far more useful in expanding the article "Goto" -- AllyUnion (talk) 08:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • It's not about GOTO. Kappa 13:16, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with GOTO. If we keep this we set precedent for keeping "30 GOTO 10", "60 GOTO 20", etc. It's best to keep as an example of GOTO. Mgm|(talk) 09:12, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
    • This title gets the most hits. What program would "30 goto 10" represent? Kappa 13:16, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • What program do you think "20 GOTO 10" represents? This isn't the name of the program. (That would be something like "HELLO.BAS".) It's just one line of code from the program. Programmers do not refer to this program by the name "20 GOTO 10". And there are plenty of other programs that happen to contain this line of code, such as this one or this one, that have nothing whatever to do with this article. Programmers refer to these as infinite loops. The only thing that "20 GOTO 10" is actually the name of is, ironically, an album. Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
  • The article about hello world programs does comprise examples in many programming languages. The hello world program article is not entitled 10 PRINT "Hello World", after one line of code in one "hello world" program in one particular programming language. Drawing an analogy to hello world program also draws our attention to infinite loop. And, I often RENUMbered from 100, anyway. ☺ This is the wrong title. Merge as per everyone else. Uncle G 11:28, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
    • You are suggesting merging this because it has "the wrong title"? It makes a horrible fit with Goto. Also it gets far more google hits (11,700) than 200 goto 100 (88). Kappa 13:16, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • Google hits are a poor metric in this case, and are an entirely useless mechanism for deciding upon a sensible encyclopaedia article title here. There's an awful lot of source code indexed by Google Web, and random lines of code are not sensible encyclopaedia article titles. The fact that, for example GOTO :LOOP gets three times that number of hits doesn't mean that it is a sensible article title. Another example: puts("hello world") gets over a million hits, but no experienced C programmer will tell you that that is a sensible title for the article that we actually have at hello world program, even though that latter only garners roughly 55,000 hits, 1/20th of the number that the line of C code does. The best solution is transwiki to Wikibooks and then merge to Wikibooks:QBasic:Flow Control, since this is really the annotated development of one specific small BASIC program. But since JIP thinks that the article should be kept, a merger, either to infinite loops or to GOTO, is a compromise. Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
      • Using the default increment the next line number after 100 is 110, not 200, by the way. Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
  • Merge with GOTO. An article based on a command should be in that command, anything else is plain stupid. I'll happily do the merge myself Proto 15:57, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • It's not an article based on a command. Kappa 17:03, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually, if the focus of the article is the line of code "20 GOTO 10", which it is purported to be, it is. The description of this line of code given in the article "repeats the PRINT command in the program without stopping", is, simply, false. (I've linked to two examples above where "20 GOTO 10" doesn't "repeat PRINT commands" at all.) If the focus is not "20 GOTO 10", then this isn't about the line of code, but about a specific program containing that and another line of code, and the article is at the very least mistitled because the line of code is not the name of the program, as already explained. Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
  • Delete drini ☎ 18:39, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge to GOTO or BASIC programming language or even Infinite loop if we have to keep something, or just delete, but either way, do not redirect this title. I've been a programmer since 1977 starting with BASIC, and I can confirm the arguments made by JIP, Doc, and Uncle G. Kappa's logic completely escapes me (a statement which itself should be in an unterminated loop). Barno 19:32, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. If redirected, it should goto Infinite loop, not Goto. "Merge" doesn't make sense because there is nothing in the text worth preserving. Google stats are very slippery here: There are 63,800 hits for "GOTO 10", of which only 11,700 are for "10 GOTO 20", 4590 for "10 GOTO 10", 1260 for "20 GOTO 20", etc. -R. S. Shaw 20:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • I revise my vote to delete or merge into Infinite loop. The infinite loop article could use a simpler example (after all, the reader doesn't know too much about programming). The 20 GOTO 10 program would do nicely, and from what I gather has been used as a such a teaching exercise. -R. S. Shaw 02:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. for(;;) and while(1) are even more common programming constructs, but we don't have (and don't need) articles on them. --Carnildo 21:53, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with Infinite loop or Goto. Flawiki 23:45, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
    • Revising my vote to Delete due to Carnildo's comments, and also because the 20 GOTO 10 seems a poor index for one seeking information about either infinite loops or BASIC's GOTO. Even in classic BASIC there might be nineteen lines of instructions before it, some of them terminating with STOPs or containing other infinite loops (the possibilities are, shall I dare say, infinite?). Flawiki 22:27, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
      • I challenge you to find a single mention of this with more than one other line Kappa 22:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
        • In google? I don't know if I can. If that's the criterion then I'd concede the point, but I don't believe it is. Flawiki 22:58, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
        • easy. From the first page of Google Web results, even. This is not the name of the program, nor is it an article title that programmers will look for, nor is the occurrence or meaning of this line of code as specific as this article erroneously says it to be. The thing that this is the name of is an album. Uncle G 03:44, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
          • I believe that this album is indeed named after the program. The fact that someone would choose this particular line as an album name proves it has more significance than the sum of its parts. Kappa 04:45, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to GOTO or infinite loop. -Sean Curtin 06:54, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge to Goto - even if this is a meme, '20 goto 10' is not the usual title thereof. Radiant_>|< 09:23, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • Do not redirect concur with Barno - or else why not redirects from evey other imaginable program line number? Either merge or delete (I don't really care which) --Doc (?) 09:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Perhaps it could be restricted to redirects from titles with over 1,000 relevant google hits. Kappa 09:56, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • merge and redirect seems fair to me Yuckfoo 20:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep a decent article, far better than school ones.  Grue  18:30, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • An article on the album might be decent. This article is actually a pretty poor one, containing factual errors. Uncle G 03:44, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
  • Delete nad replace with an article on the album. There are so many ways to make trivial programs (like while 1). Karol 08:01, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with goto  Celestianpower 4 June 2025
  • Keep. This is a legitimate example of an infinite loop, or amusing example of use of goto. Could therefore belong in either Goto or Infinite Loop and be legitimately referenced in either. In itself it is not a very sensible article. Good programming style is never to write the same thing twice, so should be in a form where it can be referenced from either of the others. How else do you reference an item relevant to two articles on distinct subjects except to make it an article itself?Sandpiper 10:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Then why did you vote keep not merge? Superm401 | Talk 20:12, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
because if I was writing a database I would reference information where it was needed and store it in one place only. So I would make two references to the goto example, one in each place where it was relevant, and keep it separately. Perhaps wiki does not do things like that?Sandpiper 15:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Very strong delete. Dancing around useless code snippet that is not even funny. Should we also have articles while (true); or while (*s++ = *t++);? This should be encyclopedia and not garbage bin. Pavel Vozenilek 18:12, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with goto and redirect. However, I am skeptical of some of the assertions in the article. I.E. ""20 GOTO 10" is a program that is well known to BASIC programmers" and "the first program many of them have ever learned." They need references. I don't think it should be kept as its own article because it is not comprehensive enough on its own. That doesn't mean the topic isn't interesting. It just means it should be discussed as part of a greater context, in this case goto. Superm401 | Talk 20:17, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Not keep. Merge, redirect, delete... not sure, but not keep. DS 12:07, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
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