English Wikipedia @ Freddythechick:Articles for deletion/Connirae Andreas

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep; no consensus to delete. JodyB yak, yak, yak 19:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Connirae Andreas

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Connirae Andreas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Notability unclear from references Clicketyclack 12:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Notability unclear from references and bibliography; does not seem to meet the criteria specified in Wikipedia:Notability (people) or Wikipedia:Notability (academics). Clicketyclack 13:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the bibliography too???
  • Bandler, Richard, John Grinder, Steve Andreas & Connirae Andreas, Frogs Into Princes (1979)
  • Bandler, Richard, John Grinder, Steve Andreas & Connirae Andreas, Trance-Formations (1981)
  • Bandler, Richard, John Grinder, Steve Andreas & Connirae Andreas, Using Your Brain for a Change (1985)
  • Andreas, Steve & Connirae Andreas, Change Your Mind and Keep the Change (1987)
  • Andreas, Steve & Connirae Andreas, Heart of the Mind (1989)
  • Andreas, Tamara & Connirae Andreas, Core Transformations (1994)
If you wrote and researched with the founders of NLP and co-wrote one of the most important books on NLP (Frogs Into Princes), than you are a very important person in NLP. Thus Connirae Andreas is a VIP in NLP. So there's no reason to mark this page for speedy deletion, nor for deletion at all. And what annoys me above all things, is that the person that added the deletion-template, did not even explain why he/she didn't estimate Andreas...Davin7 13:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC) Erase second part. This is what you finally did here. Davin7 13:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Here's just one of the professor's that is teaching her stuf Dr. Robert P. Bostrom, University of Georgia. Listing of Maricopa Community College Libraries This must be enough I suppose: for the book Frogs Into Princes there are 30,300 Google hits. For Connirae Andreas herself there are currently 27,600 hits. She's busy for quite some years. Davin7 14:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Somewhat Weak Keep The Google searches above are overestimated, but "Frogs Into Princes"+"Connirae Andreas" still generates a healthy amount of hits, and looking at them the works does appear to be used quite extensively. An oddity - why AfD this and not Steve Andreas? ELIMINATORJR TALK 15:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is new: I ran across it doing New Page Patrol, and originally marked it for speedy, but changed it to AfD after discussion with Davin7 (see edit history & Talk:Connirae Andreas). Note that none of the books listed in the bibliography have WP articles, though that's not a sufficient reason on its own for deletion.
This seems a bit of a gray area on notability: she appears to be well known inside the NLP community (so far as I can tell from search hits), but not more broadly known as an academic or public person by meeting WP notability guidelines as they currently stand: the references cited in the article cannot be classed as independent.
To answer your question, based on the outcome of the debate here, Steve Andreas may well also be a candidate for AfD. Clicketyclack 15:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe this will convince you: hits in Wikipedia on Frogs Into Princes (37, including the languages .de, .fr, .nl, .sv, .pt, .ru, .no and .ms), Trance-Formations (10), Using Your Brain for a Change (10), Change Your Mind and Keep the Change (5), Heart of the Mind (4), Core Transformations (2). Davin7 17:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
And guess what :-), look who's there in the picture at Neuro-linguistic programming. I didn't put it there :-) Davin7 17:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Pardon, but Connirae's name isn't on the cover of Frogs & Princes shown, and I can't find any editions where she was a contributing author. I don't think that book should be listed on her page: may I please remove it? Clicketyclack 17:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, many of the English WP hits on her name seem to stem from your inclusion of her name in Template:Neuro-linguistic programming. Many hits other WPs seem also to be mainly from inclusion of her name on a template: see the NL template, etc.
The two authors originally shared an article: [1], which explains why Steve Andreas' book credit found its way onto her split-off article, and why the two pages are so similar.
Most of this is beside the point though. As I noted above, she's well known in the NLP community, but does she therefore meet the WP guidelines for notability? Clicketyclack 17:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
You were right on the point that she was editor and nog the writer of three of the books I had listed. I have removed them and provided the others with ISBN and full names. Davin7 18:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The part about education is also a bit unclear: did she study at the Danforth campus of Washington University? There is no Danforth University in the United States, and her cited bio doesn't mention any university education at all. She does put the letter "Ph.D". after her name though. Where did she get her Ph.D? Clicketyclack 18:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, one of her of self-published books is on a recommended self-help list at U of Central Florida's counselling centre, not three, though one by Richard Bandler is also on there which she helped to edit. And "American Pacific University" is not a university, it's a diploma mill: see http://www.ampac.edu/about_accreditation.aspx. It's worth noting that the president of this company is also a member of staff at nlp.com: http://www.nlp.com/about_staff.aspx Clicketyclack 19:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • "Connirae Andreas is clearly in the mainstream of NLP and has increasingly established a reputation for taking NLP techniques", review of Bob Janes on Andreas' Book 'Core Transformation'. Davin7 18:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Who is Bob Janes? Clicketyclack 19:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • "Books she has authored have been translated into 14 languages", coretranformation.org In how many languages should one publish to be Wikiworthwhile? Davin7 18:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
coretransformation.org is Connirae's own web site. Can you please find independent confirmation that these translations exist? Thanks, Clicketyclack 19:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The source I have on Danforth is "Connirae Andreas was a Danforth Scholar" from coretransformation.org I'm not American so could you please change that section for me? I don't know exact vocabulary of the American academic system. Davin7 18:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that one mystified me too. Maybe someone more familiar with the terminology can help us here. Clicketyclack 19:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The Danforth scholar program is a local award of Washington University in St Louis. [2] An undergraduate college scholarship award is not enough for notability. .DGG (talk) 01:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
  • delete None of here books are by well known publishers (or perhaps self-published) or have reviews cited, the translations are attested only be her own site, no reliable 3rd party references. This may be true of some other people in the movement also, but that's no reason to keep this particular article but rather to delete the others also. No general notability. DGG (talk) 01:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Such remark is unreferenced. I cannot imagine that you know of all mayor editors, so it's your opinion. Especially seen withing the view that there are a great many translations. There's no doubt about that. Davin7 18:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Can you please cite some evidence other than the author's own website that the translations exist? I can't find a single translation.
I can also find no independent evidence that she edited "Frogs into Princes", so I will remove that unreferenced credit from the article pending confirmation. Clicketyclack 08:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
In order to have a clean debate on notability, I just removed the 'Danforth unreferenced fact' in order to stick at the notability matter only. Davin7 18:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
What a mess you make of it... Clicketyclack. Do you want a structured diaglogue or what... Never seen greater mess than on English Wikipedia... Davin7 18:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

My last attempt. I don't speak more languages but I don't reason of doubt that there are more translations that can be added

  • Dutch
    • Connirae Andreas & Tamara Andreas, Kerntransformatie, NLP als weg naar je innerlijke bron, ISBN10: 9063254644, ISBN13: 9789063254643
    • Connirae Andreas & Steve Andreas, Het hart van de geest, veranderen door innerlijke kracht, ISBN10: 9063254075, ISBN13: 9789063254070
    • Connirae Andreas en Steve Andreas, Veranderen kan leuk zijn, NLP en de kunst van het plezierig ontwikkelen, ISBN 9063253672
  • German
    • Connirae Andreas & Tamara Andreas, Der Weg zur inneren Quelle. Core Transformation in der Praxis. Neue Dimensionen des NLP, ISBN-10: 3873871408, ISBN-13: 978-3873871403
    • Connirae Andreas, Steve Andreas, Mit Herz und Verstand. NLP für alle Fälle, ISBN-10: 3873870657, ISBN-13: 978-3873870659
    • Connirae Andreas, Steve Andreas, Gewußt wie. Arbeit mit Submodalitäten und weitere NLP-Interventionen nach Maß. ISBN-10: 3873872919, ISBN-13: 978-3873872912
  • French
    • Connirae Andreas, Tamara Andreas, Transformation essentielle, ISBN-10: 2950575331, ISBN-13: 978-2950575333
    • Connirae Andreas, Steve Andreas, Au coeur de l'esprit, ISBN-10: 2950575323, ISBN-13: 978-2950575326
  • Spanish
    • Connirae Andreas & Tamara Andreas, La Transformacion Esencial: Guia Practica De Autodescubrimiento Com Pnl
    • Connirae Andreas, Steve Andreas, Cambia Tu Mente Para Cambiar Tu Vida, ISBN-10: 8488242085, ISBN-13: 978-8488242082 Davin7 18:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks for finding the translations. Digging around using the ISBNs you've provided, I've also just found one by Connirae Andreas in Italian: I nuclei profondi del sé. In viaggio verso se stessi (Heart of the mind), ISBN 8834011759. So the claim of publication in multiple languages is correct, and should be taken into account when judging notability. Clicketyclack 19:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Seems notable enough in a specialized field. --Rocksanddirt 23:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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