English Wikipedia @ Freddythechick:Articles for deletion/High-C

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete per WP:NMG and WP:VAIN among other arguments. Just zis Guy you know? 14:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

High-C

no indication of meeting WP:MUSIC. Author (who is the subject of the article) asserts that since this music is "underground", no reliable sources are neccessary or available. Friday (talk) 17:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Why open with a blatant lie, Friday? Jason Gortician 01:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete; fails WP:V.  RasputinAXP  c 19:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, doesn't appear to meet WP:MUSIC. --Elkman - (talk) 19:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Doesn't pass WP:MUSIC, and the lyrics are probably a copyvio. -Colin Kimbrell 19:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and perhaps redirect as a potential misspelling of Hi-C. --Ed (Edgar181) 20:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Nonsense. This page qualifies for numerous reasons, not the least of which is 'two indy releases', which are listed. Do you want scans of the releases? Want to contact Brian Magar, whose label released them? Did you even bother to determine any of this beforehand?
    • In what sense are the lyrics a "copyright violation"?
  • From what I can tell, the label in question does not satisfy C4 of WP:MUSIC, in that it appears to be a relatively minor indie label, and High-C does not satisfy any of the other categories either. As to your concern about copyright, I would refer you to Wikipedia:Copyright_issues#Song_Lyrics. -Colin Kimbrell 22:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Copyright is a non-issue. The artists is Creative Commons licensed, and gives permission to post his lyrics to Wikipedia, furthermore. Smoke-screen, red herring, false issue with no basis in reality. Jason Gortician 01:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:V and WP:VAIN. Just zis Guy you know? 22:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The linked page at Mindfield Media states: "When Brian was in college he started a small DIY record label (imbalance records) along with a few personal studio projects (pyroclastix, guntgrutcher)." (Emphasis added.) WP:MUSIC states: "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)." (Emphasis added.) I'm aware that it's easy to put out your own indie releases, and it's easy to distribute stuff by copying tapes or burning your own CDs. That doesn't mean that everyone who's ever copied a tape or CD is notable. --Elkman - (talk) 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Support This comment. Merge, Saddle Creek, Tooth and Nail, KRS, Drag City, Secretly Canadian, Asthmatic Kitty, Matador, Barsuk, Dischord, Jade Tree, Bar/None...the list goes on off the top of my head, but here's a reference if you need it. T K E 05:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Artist is outside mass media traditions as discussed on WP::MUSIC. Lyrics are not a copy vio due to permission given by the artist. Suggest we add music-importance tag and give people a chance to clean it up, as Friday proposes it for deletion every day and a half. Perle 23:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep High-C was the first nerdcore rapper on the Internet (see citation in the Nerdcore hip-hop comments). Also an alternate person of Jason Gortician, a notable artist as well, for being very influential in the metal scene, if nothing else. Are any nerdcore artists released on "more important indy labels"? If so, which?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason Gortician (talk • contribs) (Oops, got into something in between edits) Jason Gortician 01:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd like this to be addressed. If High-C is an analog of Jason Gortician, and Jason Gortician can easily be established as an artist of note, then the High-C page should remain. A quick peek in the hip-hop newsgroups would also show that High-C is more well-known than just about any other nerdcore artist out there. This whole discussion is petty. Jason Gortician 01:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Most? That's two. I'm amazed at the snobbishness exhibited here. "This label is more notable than that label." They're tiny indy labels. Furthermore, I'm stunned at how fiercely Friday and others police the nerdcore page, without contributing anything of value. How would Frontalot have gotten anywhere with people like this cock-blocking him? Jason Gortician 01:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I didn't go through the whole list because two seemed sufficient to rebut your point and I didn't want to pile on. Would it have really added that much to the discussion if I had also pointed out that 2 Skinnee J's were with Capricorn Records, or that MC Lars was with Nettwerk? As for Frontalot, I expect that he would've been just where he was today without a wikipedia page, since one of the many things that Wikipedia is not is a promotional tool. Penny Arcade, on the other hand... -Colin Kimbrell 02:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Imbalance Records also has a listing at discogs.com, which is a guideline site just like AMG. The label is now defunct, so asking about the size of the label today is a bit disingenuous. Jason Gortician 01:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how Frontalot got to where he is. I think he found a better way to promote himself than posting an encyclopedia article about himself, and he released his recordings on a label that hasn't gone defunct. --Elkman - (talk) 02:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The label was never major, not even when it was still viable. The quote from the label's founder on the page you linked clearly says as much, as Elkman pointed out earlier. Even the discogs.com page you're citing[1], is nearly bare, containing no information whatsoever about the label and a discography with exactly one release (a 1997 cassette with two tracks by "Pyroclastix", a band with no AMG page and only one other discogs credit, a track on compilation album with another label). -Colin Kimbrell 02:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Doesn't seem to meet WP:MUSIC Deli nk 00:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Released two albums. Important in the history of nerdcore rap. No copyvio.--Primetime 03:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I've tried to be extra patient and nice here, but my patience is exhausted. The author of this vanity article has been quite rude, accusing editors of snobbishness, calling me names, and accusing me of having a "blatant lie" in my Afd nomination. Just because I see no evidence that his article about himself meets WP:MUSIC or WP:V expectations. He's now claiming that his other former band makes him a significant musician even if High-C does not. He thinks his own postings on usenet are verifiable proof of his influence. He doesn't show any interest in wanting to understand WP:V, he just wants to rudely insist that his self-promotional content needs to be kept. That's not how we do things here. My suggestion is no longer just delete, it's delete, salt the earth, and encourage the author to find another venue at which to promote himself. Sorry for the rant, but damn, this is annoying. Friday (talk) 04:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I swear to Og, I read Pitchfork and other related internet music sites as much as this (usually at the same time), and I have never heard of nerdcore rap. T K E 04:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. We cannot verify that this passes WP:MUSIC. It should also redirect to Hi-C. Grandmasterka 07:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. --MaNeMeBasat 12:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Wow, Friday is really getting pissy. From WP:Music "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such." Gortician fits that requirement. High-C is an alternate persona of Jason Gortician.
  • I'm going to repeat my question from earlier, which was unanswered: Which part of WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC does "Jason Gortician" meet? -Colin Kimbrell 13:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
From WP:Music "Has established a tradition or school in a particular genre." I was only doing it four years before Frontalot, at least... Jason Gortician 01:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
  • If you go by the article information for the other artists linked from the nerdcore page, MC Hawking released his first album in 1992, and Commodore 64 was founded in 1982. If you don't trust those articles, there's no reason to trust your claim either, since none of it is independently sourced. -Colin Kimbrell 13:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
"Not independently sourced" is only true if you ignore the links I've provided... Jason Gortician 14:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I sat in my room and made music on my Amiga too, when I was a kid. This in no way involved establishing a tradition or school in a particular genre. If Rolling Stone says you were the the first nerdcore musician, you've got something. If you say you were the first, and there are no sources to back it up, you've got nothing. Your own assertions of the tremendous influence of your former unsigned metal band are hardly credible. Friday (talk) 13:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Mheh. Friday, you're really clued into both the nerdcore and metal scenes, aren't you? ; ) Gortician outcharted major label acts with boombox tapes, have had songs written about us, founded the Death Metal Music Association, were one of the first extreme metal acts to play live online (@ KCUF.org), are credited with influencing other acts (Benalto, for one), have a race named after us in Space War online. I could go on and on. Just because you're ignorant of these things doesn't change reality. Carry on. Jason Gortician 14:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
  • To be honest, I don't find any of those things particularly persuasive, as Benalto, the DMMA, and Space War Online all seem pretty non-notable themselves. What was the name of your metal band? -Colin Kimbrell 14:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Amazing, you don't know what band you're even talking about? Try reading more slowly, next time. Out-charting major label acts with boombox tapes isn't note-worthy? Funny, it meets wiki's criteria for notable bands. Oops, maybe that's why you ignore it? 65.13.184.164 17:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah, so the band in question is named "Gortician"! I had assumed that you were just speaking about yourself in the third person. They seem equally non-notable, so I'm sticking to my opinion. -Colin Kimbrell 16:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a chart for boombox tapes? I didn't know that. Maybe you could point us in the direction of this chart, instead of yelling at us for being ignorant. Also, try WP:CIVIL. --Elkman - (talk) 18:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
No, there's no chart for boombox tapes. Why ask such a silly question? This was on mp3.com, back when they mattered. Link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.13.184.164 (talk • contribs)
This IP is a suspected sockpuppet of User:Jason Gortician, editing around a block. -Colin Kimbrell 16:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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